Razgovor sa suradnikom:Sakretsu
Sakretsu, dobro došli na Wikipediju na hrvatskome jeziku, započetu 16. veljače 2003. godine – slobodnu enciklopediju!
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Još jednom, dobro došli! --Vhorvat (razgovor) 02:08, 15. svibnja 2020. (CEST)
Too light finger on the trigger
[uredi kôd]I read this [1][2]. None of this statistical mumbo-jumbo proves anything.
I do not match with those other users. No IP match, no same UA, no temporal coincidence. I rarely coincide with the topics that those users write. If I coincide, that's because I maintain the project or because I sometimes join on the topic. Lasta his hypothesis presents as truth and explains it with the arguments that he falsely presents as correct; it is like saying "Kubura is a turtle because the Earth is flat". Read again. He said nothing. Just the description of numbers that says nothing. "Roses are red, violets are blue, 5 is more than 4, that makes 20%, Kubura is guilty".
If IP ranges overlap, that is in range A.B.0.0. to A.B.255.255. My ISP has several IP ranges for the 400 kilometres long region. And, by the way, Lasta is also from that region, from that very city, as well as Mosorska gušterica (edit pattern of Argo Navis), Edgar Allan Poe, Direktor, etc. Ask Youself: how are You sure that it is not them? No, Lasta does not use other ISP or computer or VPN, he just described that on the request for CU.
Which was the criteria that You used to qualify me and other colleagues as "likely", "possible", "not likely"? Which method did You use? Bean or chicken bones? Anything, just to blame the accused?
What kind of behaviour is that when the accused user has no write to defend himself?
I got permablocked as a kind of vandal, on Wikidata and now on Meta.
You gave me no chance to defend myself. Kubura (razgovor) 22:15, 16. studenoga 2020. (CET)
A request for revision of "findings"
[uredi kôd]Similar message is posted on my talkpage on Wikidata.
Suspicion is just a suspicion, and nothing more. What are the technical evidences? Similar geographic area in radius of 400 kilometres? Over million subjects; counting the fact that there're also business subjects and non-residents that works there, the number of subjects rises. With the fact that most of Croatian editors are grouped in two cities, Zagreb and Split, over their actual share in Croatian population. And who was the accuser? The 10 years inactive user (who did not write 10 new articles from 2010 to 2020) from the same city as me who was caught by CU together with up to 90 users from the same IP-range (and many of them were mostly massively recategorizing, renaming the pages, inserting non-filling templates, new lines, typos, words in internal links word to [[word]])? How can You be so sure that it is not him? Ordinary geolocation is not the argument. Man, that user holds a grudge against me for over 11 years! Over 11 years! Is that sane? He was keeping his tools from that by alibi-edits to avoid loss of tools by inactivity. And after 11 years he appears and starts a war.
Man, I write about different topics than those users. They mutually differ. I was not there when they edited! What am I supposed to do? To be 24/7 on wiki? Ordinary is when You see a match in same time. What is this now? Guilty when You are at the same time, guilty when You are not. This here looks like millstone inquisition test, when the accusers put millstone around suspected witches' neck: if she gets drounded, she's not a witch, if she does not get drounded, then she's the witch and gets burned on bonfire.
Finally, all my contribution on this project (Wikidata) was constructive. In total, 16 years on wiki, 16 years of loyalty, contionuos writing of articles, maintaing the project, fighting vandalisms, advicing, mediating, calming down the situation, profound explanating the matter on the talkpages, including sensitive topics. I exposed my reputation every time I edited. And why to flush this down the toilet by a single block because of a mere suspicion that some other people from my geographic area were writing nice articles and I was not there? Are we missing something?
Whome do You trust: to a accuser-user that has not written neither 10 new articles in 11 years, who holds a grudge for that long time, who was not maintaining the project in these 11 years (alibi-edits are not the argument!), and online warrior that made wikipedia a battlefield, who wrote more of accusations on the Village pump in a single month than he wrote the mainspace articles 2009-2020? I usually daily write more new articles than my accuser wrote in whole period 2009-2020. All other users he accused wrote more new articles than him in that period.
Man, people are true resource. True hardworking users are rare.
[3].
The clairvoyancy is not the evidence (there is a breakdown on hr.wiki, done by domestic CU, with coded numbers [4][5]). All those users write about different topics. Different UA, different IP, not there at the same time. Suspicion because of "similar geographic area" (and those IP's also cover major city in Croatia) leads to segregation. Anyway, see this. Steward obviously does not know how the servers here assign IP-address. They have their randomized way.
For Your information, users of hr.wiki are not equally distributed geographically. They tend to group around capital city of Zagreb (pop. 806.341, add the "sleeping room" cities and small cities around it, it is more than a million) and the second city by population size, Split (pop. 178.192). The other big cities in Croatia (>100 k population) almost have no regular representative in 17 years (Rijeka barely 1, Osijek none, Zadar barely 1)! Population of Croatia is 4.058 millions. But, Zagreb (25% of Croatia) and Split (only 4,39% of Croatia) give the most of our users, by numbers and especially by activity. Split is especially overrepresented. Also add the fact that many seasonal and non-seasonal workers from NE Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina come to live and work area of Split and my whole IP range.
Please this again [6]. You don't see the actual IP's, but You will have a portion of insight what does CU see. To my opinion, the steward (or Meta's CU) just simply aggregated the "mostly grouped" groups of IP's into "suspicion groups". My IP-address is dynamic and it changes every time; it is assigned for 24 hours, if I remember well. If a disconnection happens, system assigns me the new one, not always from the same range, as You see. I am not able to choose it. The way steward (Meta's CU) put me into the V.W.x.x group with most users, it could have also put me into the the "rare group". More active colleagues appear in more other groups.
If You want the breakdown by interest areas of suspected users, no problem. I will gladly do it.
Also, I motivate people to join Wikipedia. It's a hard task. Only some join, many of them after a short period give up. Minority remains. Usually, it is easier to convince zemljak - someone from Your city or adjacent regions (most people I convinced are online). But they are not like me, I am unique. They appear periodically, with shorter presence when appear, while I am permanent with longer daily presence. To encourage and to educate people, it takes time. It is logical that then I am not on the hr.wiki, but chatting with friends, wiki or non-wiki related, on wiki or non-wiki topics. Sometimes I take a day(s) off. When I am on a shared computer, I also do not log to Wikipedia because that bears the risk of identity theft (permanent or "one-time"). At that time some other people are present (or not) on wiki, my countrymen or not. Absence is not the evidence for sockpuppetry.
Also, I do not want to take the credit of other users' work. They are just my countrymen, that does not make them sockpuppets.
I am not confirmed sockpuppeteer. I am newarticlewriter, article enricher. My articles were massively copied and translated across several other wikis, by local users from those wikis, in unchanged form. I am advicer. Teacher. Mentor. Maintainer. Mediator. Solver. Difficult issues solver. I put down the fire. I am not the vandal. I do not deserve this. Kubura (razgovor) 22:15, 16. studenoga 2020. (CET)
Therefore, I request that You elaborate: which were Your criteria? Stewards are not here to fullfill the wishes of the discontents from the particular project.
Mere conclusion that so many accounts can affect processes means nothing, it is too general. Such arbitrary decision is a dangerous mean to disqualify any unwanted set of users. How did You come to those conclusions? Explain it here to our community on hr.wiki.
Which were Your criteria? We have IP ranges here [7][8], with no match. Please, elaborate. Kubura (razgovor) 22:31, 16. studenoga 2020. (CET)
- Hi Kubura. I can't disclose the details of the investigation. Even if it seems unfair to you, the act of publishing CU results based on technical evidence does not constitute a "decision to disqualify unwanted users". As I'm just a steward, it is up to the global community to decide whether to globally ban you, or alternatively to local communities whether to take any measures at all on their wiki. I note that you suggest Lasta might be the actual sockpuppeteer, but I can tell you that there is no technical evidence supporting your claim. Nothing you wrote me above can affect the results. Regards--Sakretsu (razgovor) 00:04, 18. studenoga 2020. (CET)
- This looks like "You are guilty, but I can not tell You why". I did not say that Lasta is sockpuppeteer in this case (but it does stink if someone has very narrow IP range and same user agent), I just told You that he is also from the same geographic location, as well as some other users that e.g. expressed their opinion on the RfC for global ban [9]: Lasta, Edgar Allan Poe, Saxum, and there are many other active and/or periodical users from that geographic location. "Technical evidence" is a typical buzzword for hiding the fact that there is no argument. [10][11]. Our checkuser was thorough in search and report. No, there is no "peek over the shoulder tool".
- I completely disagree with You. Besides the fact that I am concerned here: which were Your "technical evidence"? Some random numbers that every user has from my geographic location (from Rab to Prevlaka, 400 kilometres). Community saw these [12][13]. Practically, You put a blame on a particular group of users because the "accuser said so".
- You were not impartial, You acted as the agent of the accuser. And You seem to be some kind of Italian patriot, very nice. You relieved one user from the allegations; what a coincidence. User with Italian name that writes about Italian history (Xane Zeggi; sorry @Xane to name You here in this context).
- This is a dangerous precedent, because this gives the open possibility for steward power abuse: "these persons are from that geoarea as that unwanted person, so I'll proclaim them as the same person and that way I will disqualify them from all other processes".
- If me and the colleagues You blamed have different IP's and different user agents, and have different areas of interest, than You have no ground to qualify them as same person (the only thing they have in common is that they write articles, unlike the accuser that just makes the Wikipedia as battlefield for over 9 months). Different means different, no matter how do You want to stretch it to be the same. Everything after that is watching from the crystal ball.
- I dislike neocolonial approach towards the small ethnicities. Especially I dislike racist (very present in Italy, especially among the iredentists) approach towards the Croats "porco slavo".
- 78 years ago Italian Fascist occupational force made rastrellamento in my hometown, Split, on the Marjan hill (hill just beside the city). Allegation was "there're partisans in the hill". They killed whole wildlife, all bigger mammals and birds, only smaller rodents and smaller birds survived; all orchards were plundered, and many timber. No partisans found. All that just because someone made an accusation.
- Also, please tell to those users (with unserious names, as if they are trolls) from country that gave such totalitaric examples (East Germany, Third Reich) and terrorist examples (Red Army Faction, Baader-Meinhof, that was in W. Germany) that canvassing around on wikis against hr.wiki and Croatian wikipedians will not change the fact that their country invented and practicized nazism and had society trained by Stasi (in E. Germany). Kubura (razgovor) 21:30, 18. studenoga 2020. (CET)
I also dislike when on the RfC I see votes of persons that have very poor userpage or nothing, with redirect to talkpage, with very unserious or gibberish names. That is what really stinks. Sockpuppets are among such users.
Also it is immoral that someone finds himself as some authority to judge the users from other wikis and impose bans for the wikipedians from that project. For example, next time we can expect that someone will accuse users from hr.wiki that oppose Italian irredentistic claims on hr.wiki, en.wiki, Meta... Someone will then accuse heterogenous group of hr. users (with only thing in common: same geoarea, writing articles) from hr.wiki, some steward will find "technical evidences" and proclaim them as "sockpuppets", and then some unformed ambitious person from some minor project will start an RfC for global ban, and that way build his/hers ego and build his CV.
How do the users, whose country/people B was in the war against country/people A, have moral right to judge their language wiki? That is a for conducting the war via other means.
Whose next to be eliminated that way? Armenians? Ukrainians?
Last, but not the least: every start of new RfC against hr.wiki, reviving of the dead RfC, any wave of criticism, accusations against hr.wiki users always coincides with the great Catholic Holidays, or Croatian great national memorial days from the Homeland War. Now are the days of Croatian national piety, we comemorize the hero city of Vukovar, "Croatian Stalingrad", heavily destructed when destructed by Serbian conquerors, we remember the slaughter of its Croatian citizens, as well as some other cities and villages. Bloody November of 1991, when my hometown was attacked. Kubura (razgovor) 21:51, 18. studenoga 2020. (CET)